DEFLATION?
I know, I said no more chicken little stories on the economy, but I've been force feeding you warmed over election news and Peak Oil stories so perhaps now economic news won't be so hard to swallow. I got all worked up over a blurb at www.survivalblog.com so I thought I would bend your ear over that. The case for deflation was made and housing and oil were used as examples. It was argued that credit contraction was leading us into a depression. It wasn't a bad argument, and we all do tend to forget that our economy is mostly credit rather than paper currency. Yet something was nagging at me over the article.
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Excess credit creation might have been inflationary in the housing market, and that collapse is causing housing costs to deflate to a degree. Yet, rental costs are rising as fewer people are willing to sell at a loss and credit dries up for others. And I would argue that credit creation has been deflationary in the retail sector. Yes, a lot of businesses had to pay extra to cover the increased cost of interest plus principle on loans as they were forced to expand to survive. But economics of scale allowed a profit as long as interest rates were low. Can you imagine all those Wal-Marts and Home Depots would be in existence if it weren't for an orgy of cheap credit being created. Credit creation allowed growth to continue. Now the lack thereof will rise prices. At first intense pressure will force some price lowering as firms are desperate to survive the credit drying up. There are already countless examples of bankruptcies due strictly to lack of credit. After excess firms are dead, there will be both lack of competition and increased interest costs to drive prices up.
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Oil is falling drastically, and only some of that contraction can be blamed on a sudden ( and I'm sure short lived ) surge in the value of the dollar and the decrease in demand. We used eight percent less imports this last year and I'll call ethanol use a ballpark 2%. Does a ten percent decline in demand drop the cost of oil two thirds? Plus, China seems to be buying up what we don't use, so it seems odd the decrease has been that much. And the dollar has increased in value about 15%. Even with futures markets queering the price it still seems oil should be closer to $75 than $50. Of course, the drastic slowdown in international trade due to the freezing of letters of credit might account for the lower oil sales leading to decreasing prices.
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Yet, if oil is now so much lower, why are food prices still so high? Food is mostly oil, from machinery to fertilizer to transport to packaging. If oil went from $150 to $60, why did a bag of flour go from $1 to $2 and only ever so slowly creep down to $1.80? Rice and beans remain high, as does anything in a can. And Rawles is also reporting that can costs are going up. I would hazard to guess the following. This time it is less about the value of currency and more about true supply and demand. Population is up, water availability and fertile land is down. Food prices will continue to rise. Oil will fall to a point. People can continue to cut recreational driving ( prices may be falling but credit is drying up faster, and unemployment is increasing ). Businesses failing means less energy needed. For a time that demand destruction will keep costs on gas down. But eventually supplies will fall enough that oil costs will rise even with less demand. Oil isn't effecting food because we have already reached a point of increased demand canceling that out. More mouths to feed every day.
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In other words, resource depletion has its own pricing mechanism.
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Wednesday, November 12, 2008
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7 comments:
There certainly seems to be something deeper going on here. And nobody really can get a handle on what it is. My gut feeling is a depression is bearing down hard, but of a different sort than the 1930's. Whatever happens, it will be quite a ride. Buckle your seatbelts boys and girls.
I have to agree that the "standard" economic model for a depression ie contraction of the supply of money does not seem to be fitting. I am sure that most of us can agree that we are certainly in a recession.
I think we are seeing a much larger scale "game" being played out here with many opposing forces at work. AND we will not actually see the last innning or the two minute warning for quite some time yet, like maybe mid 2009 or 2010.
Like topics says, buckle up and hold on.
Old fart
re:
Can you imagine all those Wal-Marts and Home Depots would be in existence if it weren't for an orgy of cheap credit being created. Credit creation allowed growth to continue. Now the lack thereof will rise prices.
Sorry Jim, but this is only half of the horse.
If the consumers did not have credit extended to them, they would not have bought all that junk to begin with. (artificial demand) They would not have been able to afford it. Now that credit is drying up the buying is slowing and stopping. The factories built during the credit expansion still exist and in order to survive they have to drastically cut costs and lower prices. Deflation.
I would have to agree with anon @2. Our current issues are driven by consumers as much as anything. And consumers are looking at it in many ways.
1) They have less money due to the value of their home (equity) decreasing, rising food and medical prices, and lack of credit.
2) They are more fearful of spending large sums or taking out large loans as they realize they could be unemployeed at any time. Savings and getting out of debt is the name of the game not getting into more debt.
And because of this they are cutting way back on purchases of everything. Yes even food but to a smaller degree there. And the lack of demand combined with the massive over production capacity are driving prices down via simple supply and demand.
Good post. It's difficult trying to figure out if inflation or deflation is the upcoming attraction. The difference between credit and printed money may just throw a wrench into standard economic analysis. Toss in the 'velocity of money' (actual spending of dollars, cash or credit), and the complexity level ratchets up a notch further.
Housing prices were just a credit-induced bubble, and a readjustment was going to happen sooner-or-later, regardless. Peak Oil may have already occurred, but prices got out of line too quickly anyway. Besides, world oil production was still meeting demand *before* oil prices took off, despite the extra demand from China, India, et al. So, maybe not Peak Oil yet after all. (But soon, soon...)
Certain bellwether commodity prices such as gold are down. But is this a transient phenomenon, to be followed by a major price increase, or is this the beginning of true deflation? You'd think gold prices would be going through the roof right about now...
Jim said:
"Yet, if oil is now so much lower, why are food prices still so high?"
He also said:
"I would hazard to guess the following. This time it is less about the value of currency and more about true supply and demand. Population is up, water availability and fertile land is down. Food prices will continue to rise."
Exactly. And I think *water* itself may be the key. California produces around 40 percent of fruits and vegetables for the entire United States, and California is in a HUGE, years-long drought. Governor Schwarzenegger proclaimed a State Of Emergency for the Central Valley Region in California five months ago.
Add to that a judge's (idiotic) decision to 'save the smelt' (an endangered fish) by cutting back pumping and water transfers from the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta, and mainline farming in California is nearing a full-blown state of collapse. (In a couple of years, maybe, depending upon the snow-pack, etc.)
For all of that, I can't ditch the sneaking suspicion that *deflation* might be the biggest long-term worry. I pretty much agree with Jim's trenchant analysis of the situation, but still, there's this little nagging 'something' that keeps saying to me, "deflation, deflation..."
(Maybe I should smoke a cigarette? :-)
One piece of that might be consumer spending, which makes up two-thirds of the entire US economy. People in general are not, repeat NOT, going to be whooping-it-up in the shopping malls this holiday season. Yet holiday spending makes up a huge proportion of total yearly consumer spending.
Combine that with the new 'consumer credit crunch' (which Treasury Secretary Paulson has now decided is the Main Front in the credit crisis, not bad bank mortgages), and it doesn't take a genius to see more bankruptcies and layoffs coming up in the near future. The big question being: will this all spiral downwards out of control?
(Bankruptcies and layoffs --> people have less money to spend --> more bankruptcies and layoffs --> etc., etc., on down the chute.)
Not that any of us has a crystal ball. The future is mighty tough to predict. But one can help to *create* one's own future by prepping, so there's that.
Also, on a much brighter note, it just might all work out. This 'could' very well be just a needed readjustment to various overspending bubbles (housing in particular), plus the credit crunch, and once the temporary financial scare has passed, and the weaker, most over-extended companies have been viciously weeded out (in a year or two, maybe), things go back to 'normal', at least for awhile.
That's what I believe is going to happen during *this* current go-round, but I needed to doom-and-gloom and scare the k-rap out of everybody for 90 percent of this post to keep in King Jim's good graces.
All hail Bisonia! :-)
Dumbazz
goodness, some of you treat 'money' like a god and think inside the box...
there's one reason why we are going to get HYPERINFLATION: the politician's love of the printing press.
when prices and demand for manufactured goods go down. these people STOP producing when they start losing money, many times they go bankrupt. things start to disappear off the shelves, and choices decrease.
it's been happening for 6 months. manufacturers trimming their line back and jacking up prices.
hum! i read that water allotments are way down in california, like to 15%. A lot of growers are cutting out certain crops and reducing their planting. maybe it will rain, maybe not.
so expect some more price increases down at the food store.
personally, i don't find $2.69/gal gas particuarly 'deflationary'... so if if takes $6 to get to the good hardware store and back, and $10 to the big city, i'm not going to get very venturesome.
dang! after taking out $10 from my pay, ain't enuf left over for some McDrek's and Budwipe Beer, thankfully. althought i wish i had some of their stock. i think they'll do well while the other BRAND AMERICA companies line up for subsidies and then buy each other out...
'9:36 PM' said:
"personally, i don't find $2.69/gal gas particuarly 'deflationary'..."
I heard that. But apparently the producer countries are now all in a tizzy as the price of oil is now 'only' around DOUBLE what it was a year or two ago. Seems they've grown accustomed to their new Standard Of Living over there, with all the new palaces and such on every other street corner. So OPEC is attempting to tighten up the spigots to get that price back up there where it now 'belongs'.
'9:36 PM' said:
"there's one reason why we are going to get HYPERINFLATION: the politician's love of the printing press."
Yeah, that's the Classical School of Economics. A larger money supply equals a higher general price level. Which is *true*, all else being equal.
However, Jim's talking about a new twist on this classical theme. He comes to the same final conclusion, *inflation*, but by a rather different route. (Actually, several different routes.)
I responded to Jim's post earlier, but just like Jim I kind of 'dodged the bullet' relative to the article he was quoting. Mainly because it requires a LOT of hard thinking, and I am feeling lazy. :-)
I'll hand you the General Proposition, so you can mull things over, then dodge all the hard work again until Jim comes back to do most of the mental heavy lifting.
Basically the deal is, politicians love the printing press, yes, but that was soooooo 1800's. After Keynes arrived on the scene, and then Nixon (abolishing the Gold Standard), politicians were then free to create Infinite Money without having to bother even printing it. It's called CREDIT.
Now the Big Question is, does changing the supply of credit change the supply of money?
At first blush you might think, yeah, of course it does. But not so fast.
Say Bank #1 says to you, "'9:36 PM', we really like you. So we're increasing your credit-line to one million dollars."
You are wowed by this 'windfall', and think about what kind of yacht you really deserve to own. You think for a full month, just to make sure you get the right one. Then comes the phone call:
"'9:36 PM', we heard from our 'sources' that you were posting over at the hyper-radical Bison Survival Blog, and now we really don't think you deserve that million dollar credit line after all. Have a nice day."
Okay, no super-yacht, no bikini babes, no laid-back lifestyle, no nothing. Shucks. Heck. Darn. Too bad.
But wait! Were the prices of yachts ever affected by your one-month credit-line bonanza??? You never actually bid on a yacht or anything. It was all just 'in your mind'.
So if it was all just 'in your head', did that million dollar credit line actually increase the nation's money supply during that month??? If so, did INFLATION occur??? That is, did a general increase in prices occur due to the 'supposed' increase in the overall money supply?
NO, it did not.
Therefore, CREDIT, in and of itself, is NOT INFLATIONARY. Only the 'velocity' of credit (actual USE/SPENDING of credit) has an impact on general prices across the nation.
This is also true, of course, with PRINTED money. BUT, with PHYSICAL cash in your greedy hands, rather than transient computer bits, it can't just be so easily snatched away from you by the push of a button or whatever. You POSSESS that PHYSICAL cash, and at *some* point will very likely end up *spending* it, thereby affecting the money supply and the overall price level (INFLATION). Not so CREDIT, which can VANISH for various reasons in an instant. (Like, say, a CREDIT CRUNCH, such as we are experiencing RIGHT NOW.)
So CREDIT may or may not be inflationary or deflationary, just depending upon its potential velocity (and even EXISTENCE) at some uncertain future date.
All of which is why Jim and I kind of ran away from the hard mental work of trying to explicitly figure out if CREDIT is inherently inflationary, deflationary, or something else, given our CURRENT ENVIRONMENT.
So will the DESTRUCTION of CREDIT also destroy that portion of the MONEY SUPPLY or not?
And will the ADDITION of *MASSIVE* amounts of (quite possibly to be UNSPENT!!) CREDIT increase the money supply, and therefore INFLATION???
All of this in the context of bankruptcies, layoff, lower consumer spending (two-third of the US economy), and, yes, a GIGANTIC CREDIT FREEZE, both banking and, supposedly, consumer-based as well.
Dang. That sure sounds like w-o-r-k to figure out. And Jim just posted, so he might not even read this and be obligated to get off his mental butt and tell us what's what.
Anyway, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Dumbazz
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