POW & NC'S
Before starting once again of divine drivel, a very hearty thanks to all those that recently bought through my Amazon Affiliate pages over yonder at www.bisonpress.com . My commission was at a near record $40 and with it I treated myself to "Peak Everything" and "Your World Is About To Get A Whole Lot Smaller". Looking forward to those. And, my Google ads payments are coming in at $50 a month instead of the old $35 ( average, of course ). My e-book sales have also risen from their old lows. Keep being generous with those rapidly depreciating Greenbacks and I'll keep vomiting out my nuggets of wisdom. A bargain at twice the price. And I keep forgetting to recommend www.backwoodssurvivalblog.com . He gives you a short run down of flagged articles, which is a great time saver.
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All this recent talk about forming a new federal super agency for torture has gotten me thinking about the bad old times just down the turnpike. Not only has our propaganda gotten more like the old Soviet Union, our torture methods are better resembling the KGB also. If you don't call it torture, it can't be torture. I recently was exposed to a program on an old WWII fellow on our side. He was fondly remembered by the Germans for his use on totally non violent interrogation. It was all psychological. Merely clever questioning. But that is now viewed as totally old school. TV constantly shows us violent interrogation, justifying it because the crooks are bad. Innocent until proven guilty? What Constitution? And the feds have lawyers arguing over the definition of sex, er, I mean torture. Well, perhaps torture by sex. Sorry, bad Clinton joke. No offense Hillary, honest. If I don't post on Monday, you know she eliminated me. They'll say it was a traffic accident... Anyway, even forgetting about morals and scruples and being a decent human being, it seems someone has forgotten that your behavior comes back on you. Good or bad. Which means that by its brutal behavior, the government is condoning its troops and citizens to retaliation. That's how much they care. Risking your life to safeguard our fortunes? As thanks, we'll let you be abducted and tortured. God Bless America.
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After the collapse, when universal bad behavior abounds, you need to be on the side that rises above that. Not only is it the right thing to do, it will come back on you. If you behead civilians and burn fields so the peasants will starve, you will invite the same sort of thing. If you spare non combatants and treat prisoners decently, the other side will at first treat your troops and citizens poorly as usual. But in time you will still be paid back in other ways. Skilled people will want to immigrate and work for you. Soldiers will willingly surrender rather than bitterly fight to the last man, saving casualties on your side. Citizens will help you out to overthrow their evil overlords. You are doing the right thing morally, and being rewarded for it. It is a win/win. I think this shows how desperate our leaders are, that torture is allowed ( funny how your hero Obammy condoned Baby Bush for torture at first, but now wants to make it a cabinet level activity ). We don't have the resources to bribe other countries, but must simply steal what we need.
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When you take POW's, it is okay to put them to work to earn their keep. It isn't okay to feed them less calories than they are using so you eventually kill them. You can't torture them, regardless of how valuable the information they have is. Once you cross that line, there is no turning back. Mistreating prisoners should be a punishable offense. Remember, you want willing surrender to save on your own casualties. You might even consider a program where they join your side. Prisoner trades should be encouraged. Rather than having each side suffer under too many prisoners ( not enough food to spare, for instance ), you swap them out to relieve the burden. Then there is the issue of retribution. If your civilians are killed, don't do the same. If their side won't pay restitution, at the worst you might execute some POW's. That one might be dangerous, but at least you are keeping the casualties military. Don't be arbitrary about it, don't just shoot them all in anger. Give the other side plenty of warning and chances to comply with your demands. Money doesn't make up for death, but it is preferable to further innocents dying.
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NC's, non-combatants, should not be treated as badly as we are used to. We fire bombed Japanese and German cities under the assumption that civilians created war material and thus had to be killed. But what that also did was make the civilians buy into their leaders propaganda. We were slaughtering them all, so give your all fighting back, even if it is only in a factory. I'm not excusing the leadership, I'm saying that civilians can't be targets if you want them to sabotage their own leaders efforts. If the SS hadn't been killing civilians when the Russian invasion started, the civilians would have looked at them as liberators. We bomb the heck out of Iraq after a ten year embargo which denied critical food and medicine to innocents, and we wonder why there is guerrilla warfare. I understand it is a bit more complex than that, but we certainly are not liberators. It is as simple as reaping what you sow. It is pretty black and white. You start creating shapes of grey and you are going down a slippery slope.
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Isn't the concept of consequences pretty simple? Is it just me, is it actually more like rocket science? I weep at the sea of stupidity.
END
Thursday, August 27, 2009
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15 comments:
After the collapse, when universal bad behavior abounds, you need to be on the side that rises above that. Not only is it the right thing to do, it will come back on you.
excellent post and I couldn't agree more! A breath of fresh air compared to other recent blog entries.
Golden Rule, and we all know survivalist like gold ;)
Whatever you ate or read before writing this post, do it more. I am impressed. This is a lot of very good stuff folks need to know. Could save lives Jim, if you keep this up.
Good on you.
You also have to look at process that your enemies use and the way they treat your side as well. German soldiers were welcomed at first because the people of the western portions of Russia were sick and tired of the communist. The SS and gestapo turned out to be just as bad, if not worse than the russkies. The Jap were indoctronated into the warrior mind set and would fight till the end. There is no doubt that our killing of German and Jap civilians was a big reason for our success in WWII. Without the people and material to build tanks and weapons they were unable to fight effectly. Without young men growing into men they were unable to field competent soldiers. I agree with you about torture, I could not do it, but these terror groups we face nowdays will never treat our captured soldiers with compassion,k even captured civilian aid workers are slaughtered without pity. Do you think we should not just kill everyone of them we find on the battlefield? I do, it would end this torture that you seem to be so upset about. As for getting intelligence about our enemies, you will not get that anyway by just asking clever questions.
this is a good post.
rightwing gun nut survivalists seem sort of inherently evil hitler types, who first thing, will joyously go out and create an orgy of murder and mayhem a la nazi brownshirt style, bathing in blood, and eating eyeballs.
that's where the freepers, libertarian and townhall rightwinger groove seems to be...simply evil, completely self-centered, racist, and leaning toward the satanic.
is that an America you really want to survive in? at the very least, the music will be terrible.
Very good post, and I agree that you have covered some very good information. Well put!
but these terror groups we face nowdays will never treat our captured soldiers with compassion,k even captured civilian aid workers are slaughtered without pity. Do you think we should not just kill everyone of them we find on the battlefield? I do, it would end this torture that you seem to be so upset about. As for getting intelligence about our enemies, you will not get that anyway by just asking clever questions.
just because one group does it our group doesn't make it right. it isn't always easy to do the right thing.
alot of what we know comes from media sources does it not? What goes on that isn't shown to us or the media? Do we watch cable news and have the dish tuned up to catch foreign news so you can see both sides or just different views so you can form your own opinions?
hell there might even be survivalist blogs like this in a foreign language we are unaware of because of the language barrier.
remember one man's patriot is another man's terrorist.
have some of their common folks been killed, were the aid workers perhaps killed in revenge for some of their people getting killed?
how is our military viewed over there by the common citizen in Iraq?
Is their media swaying them like our media does to us?
the battlefield isn't so easily defined either. Lots of city fighting there right? people live in cities, not just the fighting types.
it's not like our troops and their fighters run out into a empty part of the desert and line up to have at each other.
does this sound familiar?
During the American Revolution, Francis "Swamp Fox" Marion
realized that his forces were no match for the highly trained
and superbly equipped British forces. To compensate for his
forces lack of training and equipment, Marion used guerrilla
type tactics against the British.
so it seems they have taken a page from our book and they are now the guerrilla fighters and now we are the highly trained and equipped forces....
So Frances Marion was a terrorist to the British at the time but a hero to us.
take those spoonfuls from the media with a grain of salt.
Hell,25Q4ABy- - etc.etc. I have no idea who or what may have been killed on the other side of this fight and neither do you, I think. I can find no information from the other side nor would I want to. I, like you can only see what they see fit to show us. So as for me I will accept, with a grain of salt, what I can from the country that gives us BOTH the freedoms NOT AVAILABLE anywhere else. I do not believe my soldiers rape and kill wantonly. I do not believe they would torture anyones children or other family members in front of them. I don't care about "one mans patriot" and yes we used guerrrilla against the Brits, but they were the ones doing most of the torturing and civilian killing, not our side. You seem to be an intelligent person but I don't believe you know anymore about winning a war than I do nor if you even know more about war than I do. It doesn't matter there's not one thing we can do. If you haven't been then by all means join up and see for yourself. Become a grounder pounder, Marine or Army whatever you can do but if you have never been don't try to feed me your pacifist crap.
The reason the 'old school' is against torture is that it's considered worse than useless; anybody will say anything if they think it's going to save their teeth, fingernails or gonads...
It's pretty safe to say, that people who torture do it for gratification. You know to get their jollies.
I agree, some people (POL,POT THE GESTAPO, THE VC, THE NVA AND MANY MORE), looks like its me against the world tonight,do torture for fun and profit or jollies. I said in my other post that 'I could not do it' but I think if I could stop another 911 I would do anything in my power to stop it. I had said many times in the past that I would not care if NYC was was bombed off the face off the earth an should be, but I cried many tears while watching that on tv and wished I was young enough and healthy enough to re-up. Just to get back at whoever did that horror.
hum, i've seen the agent orange cancer take away some of my buddies, as well as ones that stuck a gun in their mouth to stop their own war...
i've seen guys waste away to nothing from gulf war syndrome and disappear down the memory hole. never happened did it ? whatcha' talkin' about huh?
bushwipe, declared victory in 2003, didn't he? McInsane claimed the surge is working..obammy promised to have all the troops out by now ?
don't listen to big brother. you can serve god or you can serve the state.
I have seen agent orange take others and it's working on me, alang with the PTSD and also some eating of the .45, but I wonder if Bush had anything to do with that victory declaration of if it wasn't just some overenthusiastic swabby with a printer and a permission slip. I'm just saying---
I, like you can only see what they see fit to show us. So as for me I will accept, with a grain of salt, what I can from the country that gives us BOTH the freedoms NOT AVAILABLE anywhere else. I do not believe my soldiers rape and kill wantonly. I do not believe they would torture anyones children or other family members in front of them. I don't care about "one mans patriot" and yes we used guerrrilla against the Brits, but they were the ones doing most of the torturing and civilian killing, not our side. You seem to be an intelligent person but I don't believe you know anymore about winning a war than I do nor if you even know more about war than I do. It doesn't matter there's not one thing we can do.
don't confuse your freedoms or your rights with what the media deems fit to show you.
we aren't even talking about winning the war here, you are getting off topic.
we are talking about the handling of prisoners of war and torture.
From what you wrote it looks like you totally missed the point of my using the American revolution as an example. The point isn't guerrilla warfare it is what folks fight for. What they will put their lives on the line for?
You sir have given up hope with the "It doesn't matter there's not one thing we can do."
given up on those freedoms you talked about earlier...
don't try to feed me your pacifist crap.
I don't follow where you are getting that I'm a pacifist from what I'e written earlier. Does trying to have a better understanding of what is going on make me a pacifist?
Look, there's TV and then there's reality. There was never "Ticking Time Bomb" that was averted by the CIA when torturing Taliban or random Iraq guys. Not one incident. Torturing to stop nukes from going off is only from TV, it's 24, it's Donald Sutherlands kid.
If one ever finds himself in that kind of situation, you torture the guy in violation of law. I doubt the jury will find you guilty, at worst you'll get some kind of slap on the wrist. And even that will end up being commuted because the Public will see you as a hero.
Those Army guys and gals didn't seem like they minded torturing much. My beef is that they were clearly educated on torture by consultants and agents, and none of those guys or their superiors went to jail. It also killed our international prestige and makes getting cooperation much more difficult.
Sun Tzu (and various Chinese philosophers who followed him) had a lot to say on this matter, under the premise that he who held the moral high ground would be victorious, that prisoners should be treated well so as to win the hearts and minds of the populace of the lands you hoped to conquer, rather than hardening the enemy to fight harder and making it easier for him to recruit, and that torture was less than useless since the tortured would say anything just to make it stop, and since the torturer didn't know the truth when they heard it (or else they wouldn't need to torture in the first place), any information obtained was garbage at best.
2500 year old wisdom.
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