ITS OK IF YOU’RE IN CHARGE
I love the moral high ground being taken recently. The scramble up to the top of Mount Righteous is so severe that those of us on the bottom are being showered with debris. Naturally this pisses us off so there is bound to be a bit of response. The issue is
looting
and resource theft. The crucifix brigade has taken the lead in denouncing this of course. Unless there is a 99%
die-off
, we are to assume that anything nailed down or loose belongs to someone else and thus off limits. Beware those with a lot of gun and no food stores. It isn’t that I disagree with this. I don’t steal other peoples crap and I don’t expect them to steal mine. But the question turns from black and white into grey when you go from a micro to a macro perspective. When individuals steal or murder it is wrong and unjust. When the government does it it is taxes and defense.
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So my central question here is, when is it wrong for a person or group to steal and when does it fall under a government being created? There will never be a lack of government, only its form will change. I think it would really be cool to have an
anarchist
society, either now or post-apocalypse, but I think the odds of its success are slim to none. There might have been historic examples of anarchist societies in embryonic form, sharing many characteristics of the utopian ideal, but I don’t think it was ever a true reality. A tribal leader holding power only through unanimous consent is still a form of government since there is no reason to have one if it doesn’t hold some form of monopoly on force. When the
Oil Age 
top down centralized governments start to collapse under resource scarcity, medieval forms of rule will reemerge. Government will shrink in geological area but not in scope. So, how do these new forms of government emerge? Do the old rulers wave their righteous wand of governance and degree that henceforth Bobbi Lee and his band of Merry Men will rule their fellow man? Of course not. Individuals and small groups will fight amongst each other for the right to rule. For the right to be the next king or prince or
baron
.
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In the very messy business of government metamorphosis there is bound to be two groups joining battle and each one of them is engaged in such nasty business as looting, kidnapping, theft, murder,
shake-downs
, bribery, etc. Criminal gangs do all of these things to survive and thrive. Even freedom fighters are bound to take what they need if it isn’t offered. When the dust settles and a victor emerges, they are the new government and rather than stealing they are taxing. Rather than
murdering
they are executing or defending the homeland. Rather than kidnapping for ransom they are incarcerating a non-taxpayer. But the losers are the ones looting and killing and stealing. This isn’t an amusing case of
semantics
. This is literally the legitimization of bad behavior by the victims. Why? Because in most cases the benefits outweigh the costs. The twenty percent paid to the government is much better than the 100% paid to the raider, with loss of life thrown in for good (bad ) measure. Victimization is excused and condoned as the lesser of evils. The price you pay to grow turnips.
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How can the same group that are criminals turn into saviors overnight?
Victory
. Everyone loves a winner and the two criminal gangs fighting decides who will be good and who will be evil. Or, more pragmatically, once a group has proven it is strong enough to protect you then you have no problem that it will exploit you. For the winning team this is a very sweet deal. Your victims not only condone your behavior they cherish it and think it is right, proper and just. So you see, I’m not disagreeing with the moral majority on looters and thieves. I will be right there with them hanging
horse thieves
and executing rapists. Unless of course I am on one of the two teams that is fighting to be that populations next government. I won’t know if I’m a criminal or a savior until the contest is over and I’ve won or lost. The odds aren’t bad, fifty percent either way. Which might explain why there is never a shortage of candidates. But think about it. You in the crowd, cheering on the execution of a band of desperados. That group could have been the very people you are gladly paying taxes to. And keep all this in mind when you are fighting criminals. Some will simply be thieves and are doing what they are doing out of simple survival or greed. But others will genuinely believe they are destined to be the next ruling class and they actually think they hold the moral high ground. You see them as murderers, they see themselves as trying to keep the peace. That distinction might be an important point to remember. You should know the motivation of your enemies.
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It is all well and good to recall the truism that the victors write history. But are you thinking on small enough terms with that? Are you applying it to the bandits attacking you? Or are you just thinking that the winner of a war changes the text books to reflect favorable on themselves? Think smaller. It might behoove you in your fight for survival.
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16 comments:
"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
Ovid
Yep. The reason the 'good' guys win the wars is because the 'good' guys get to write the text books.
jim i think it was PATTON that said the one that wins gets to write the history book.he may have got the quote from some one else but sounds like him .anyway keep up the good work your going strong and a lot of the survival blogs seem to be fizziling out on content [excluding the gun nuts] i have never understood the diffence between shot between the eyes with a 22 or 45 both means dead
The point where it gets murky (for me anyway) is when does it become stealing / looting vs. survival. If you come across some unguarded livestock, is it okay to take them for your own or do you have to wait for owner to show up? Can you go into a home and scavenge the water from water heater / foodstuffs from it without repercussons? Do the dwellings adjacent to these homes have 1st dibs?
I don't know, but I foresee a lot of misunderstandings in the future. I think a discussion of this is long overdue.
Have a great weekend Mr. Dakin.
Its or It's?
Its is the possessive pronoun; it modifies a noun.
It's is a contraction of it is or it has.
Just trying to help :-)
Hit that nail on the head, Bison!!!
To view a current example in our own US of A which shows a group of freedom loving Americans watch "Off the Grid: Life on the Mesa" There is a part where a group of young kids take from some people in 'the Mesa', see how that gets dealt with. Aside from the Amish this group is about as far removed from society as you can get, except for the handouts they accept.
All the Holier Than Thou survivalists can talk all the sh** about the evils of looting and how they would never do it.
Let's take away their foodstocks and then their little bunker, now let the SHTF.
How does that go............?
There but for the grace of God go I
youknowwho
re: a lot of the survival blogs seem to be fizziling out on content
9:00 anon you are exactly right! It is PATHETIC! (not you Jim)
# 1 just takes letter from readers and #2 just searches the web for things to link to.
There is a new site coming. Watch for it.
I of course would have to say "use your common sense and the morals you (should) have been raised with".
If it's livestock your thinking about taking are they in someones yard or a tended field?
Is the house with the water heater inhabited or has been anytime recently?
There is a real difference between scavenging and looting.
Finding a few cans of tuna left in a house that has its windows and doors knocked out and the weather coming in for months is scavenging. Taking water from a car radiator that sits on the side of a road miles from any dwelling and it's tires have been flat for months is also scavenging.
Shooting a calf that is with its mother in a pasture that is connected to a farm house with a dog yapping from the yard is LOOTING.
coming across the same calf in the middle of what remains of "Insert national forest name here" six months after a major collapse with no fence on land that hasn't been fenced in a hundred years maybe looting to a point but is more than likely closer to scavenging since the possibilities of finding the owner are slim to none.
Of course someone could come back to the tuna house looking for said can(s) I guess so all factors need to be weighed.
If I'm hungry (and I've already eaten my kids), I'm going to eat whatever I damn well please. If I'm eating your stuff- you can shoot me. If I'm eating your neighbor's stuff, again- you can shoot me. If I'm eating my own stuff and you shoot me and eat it... well... to stay in my earlier vein... you can shoot me again... and then eat me. I'll be good- cause there's plenty of lard to go with my minimal muscle content. Marbled? Maybe.
My point is that if it's to the point of me not being able to eat my own stores, or my own chickens/eggs, or from my own garden, then shit is definitely AFU, and none of us are going to be using Robert's Rules for Parliamentary Procedure. Does the lobster give a shit who it pinches as it is trying desperately to avoid going into the hot tub? Hell no! "Now I ask ya, would you give a fuck what kind of pants the son-of-a-bitch who shot you was wearing?" Nobody cares. Does gravity care? Nope. Gravity drops you like it drops anybody else. It's just the laws of psychics. Yeah... I did that on purpose. But really, man, if it's that fucked up, I don't give a crap. I'm trying to avoid the "stew-pot", as Heir Dakin would say. Yeah, I'd try to hang onto some of my "basic good-guy characteristics". You don't want to let those get away. That's what gets you laid. Or layed. One is for the chicken, one is for the whore... which one comes first? I'm killing myself. I read Rawles' book. I liked it. I thought he went too far with all the 'looter-hatin', though. I think if it gets that bad, it ain't going to get better. I think a well armed resistance is going to be up shit creek against a military. I think that's where Dakin is actually right :-) I read some of his fiction, and it was a lot more realistic, and less pie in the sky, bullshit. Not to kiss ass- I only read a few chapters of yours, Dakin :-) I'm tired. Am I done yet?
I'm completely with PioneerPreppy on this; there is a fairly clear line between scavenging and looting. Looting = stealing. Stealing = wrong. This is not rocket science, use some common sense.
I'd say unguarded live stock definitely is NOT fair game, unless you want your head blown off. My parents own a farm in Nebraska with 100 acres and about 20 head of cattle. You can't watch or guard 20 head on 100 acres all the time, but you can some of the time. Just b/c you think they're not being guarded doesn't mean it's so. But that 100 acres is fenced. I can tell you if I was there after TSHTF (I plan to be) and anyone showed up with a rifle raised at the cattle, they'd be dead for looting.
Now, if I saw a group of people moving across the property and they didn't seem to be trying to kill cattle or pitch a tent, I'd let 'em pass through. No harm, no foul. But if said group was scoping out the house, the barn, the cattle, and taking notes; they'd probably not be leaving w/o a fight. Again, common sense.
As a society we've come to recognize some responsibilities and rights of the legitimate government. Taxes require services rendered. In the U.S., there is a vote involved. Those who try to get around that are asking for insurgency, at least in most parts.
My plans have always included salvaging the remains of the old world.
I figure it will be like in nature when groups of animals drive other groups away from a carcass. First there gets the choicest parts. Of course the successful group will never consider what they are doing as looting but will lynch another for doing much the same. I don't consider the much touted "Golden horde" much to worry about...It's the later "Brass Horde" that will be the trouble. The self righteous ones will be the worse. These will kill, rape, and plunder anyone outside their world view or their group. These types will be hunted to extinction for they cannot be tolerated anymore than the cannibals. The others I see as failing to realize that the touted mall ninja might just succeed in ending their life. Today's weapons expert may well fall to a poachers crossbow. I expect the die-off to be close to 60% of current population prepared or not. It will be informative to see who becomes the new warlords, martinets, and their Ilk. Who will cling to the shreds of the old ways and who will embark on a new way? Who will grab more land than they need? Who will try to declare themselves a power in the new world? Those are the enemy of everyman. I wonder how many realize that?
Really insightful today!
If the Brits had won in 177x, the fuonders of our country would have been hanged as traitors. Instead, they're heroes.
PhilaBOR
What would you do if you would catch a looter in the act? My place was broken into recently and I have debated that question with myself.
I also believe if I was in the situation to where I had to scavenge, I would leave a note saying that I would try to make right in the future.
This is a reason to prepare at least in cadre form to form units capable of controlling territory, protecting local resources, maintaining and establishing order and not only protecting ourselves and our immediate family group but also the neighborhood/local community and its survival and recovery resources.
Someone will take control in a collapse, it is better that it be someone local who will both protect local survival and recovery resources but the local community. If not you or your group find a leader/group you can support and do your darndest to make sure they win.
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