Saturday, July 09, 2011

future compound

FUTURE COMPOUND


A hearty high ho and thanks for all the fishes to I.H for the generous donation. And to R.B. for a nice score in cash with the same amount in forever stamps. That was nice since I always seem to be running short of those. Plus, it will be interesting to see if the stamps outlast the solvency of the Post Office ( it was a lot of stamps ). As always the natural inclination is to buy more books but I’ll try to hold off and give it some thought. More beans? More rice? Reloading supplies? Hmmm. So much falling apart, so little time.

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Okay, the way I see it is that I throw you a juicy meat clinging bone full of marrow one day, then starve you for a couple/few days after that with mediocre crap no one wants to hear about but my more pleasant/polite minions oooh and aah about just to make me look good. This might be one of those mediocre days. Herewith we discuss the future Bison Compound. I’m actively soliciting opinions rather than telling you my plans. You’ll see what I mean in a bit. Okay, the earth tube experiment is officially over and I declare a big moist raspberry. That thing sucked ( I’ve dismantled it. That lost my couple/three degrees cooler air but with all the vents open I get better air circulation, so it feels cooler ). Remember when I first moved to Elko and I was going to try the “second battery in the car, charging as you drive”? That was a bust. I got all excited about extra juice ( before I bought the proper equipment that sipped the electric plus got more solar panels ) and ended up disappointed. The theory was sound, tried and tested, but it didn’t work for me for whatever reason. On the battery, I’m sure it was because I didn’t travel a long enough distance. On the earth tube, I either needed to go deeper, go longer, have a bigger tube, or a combination thereof ( please, no penis jokes. Okay, but just one. That’s what she said! ). I’m completely over the earth tube idea. Done. No more. I don’t like my expectations continuously aroused and then end up disappointed ( which is why, as I tried to explain to most wives but they never listened, better to live alone and get no sex than to have sex potentially available but always denied- am I the only sane one here? And, yes, you do have to hear about my lack of a sex life. Far better than hearing about one if I had it ).

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So, since the stable temps of the earth can’t come to my trailer, I must go to the earth. Time to build underground. I don’t want an aboveground shelter, even super-insulated, because all our cloudy days are in winter, and it is normal to have a week of clouds with temps in the teens or twenties. The whole idea here is to survive with no propane, and wood heat is not an option. Right now it is too expensive and after the collapse even that which is available thirty miles+ away will be used up immediately. Brush will be used also, although I’m hoping I’ll have enough to cook with ( even with a good solar oven cooking a weeks worth of bread at a time, I’ll need some kind of cooking fuel. So, even though I’d love to double wall insulate the van, or build a cabin, I won’t be able to heat it enough. As far as passive heat and thermal mass, I need you to be realistic with the price. I’m talking about a $500 project, with a ceiling, for something really fancy, of a grand. For comparison, my earth wall lumber roof pit cost $200 ( 8x8, five foot deep- now a storage shed, if need be an emergency shelter ). The temps in the pit are 40 in the winter and seventy in the summer. If I go deeper than five foot and insulate the roof better the earth mass will give me a 50-60 temp year round. With just a short cooking fire I should stay toasty warm in there all winter.

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In this county, anything under 100 square foot doesn’t need a building permit. And if I do 8x8 I don’t need to cut much lumber. So, here are my thoughts. I could burry the van. If I dig my pit twenty feet long I can tow it on down. The living area is 7x10, the rest hood and drivers seat. This is the cheapest way, as I’ll just cover the roof with plastic and an inch of dirt to cover that plastic. Remember, my dirt walls here don’t need shoring up. I imagine with a few sheets of rigid foam insulation this will be as warm/cool as the current pit. Cost, under $100. Next up, digging the hole, 10x10, and building the 8x8 wooden cube inside, set up on concrete blocks. This keeps the moisture off me, as well as the bugs. Then, build a roof over the cube and overlapping the ground outside the pit. Plastic and two inches of dirt. About $500 if I insulate, $350 otherwise. If I double the pit, I have an “outside”underground area to cook, bathe, store some items. This way I keep moisture out of the cube and have twice the space. So, double the needed roof, about $800. Another idea, so I don’t go crazy from living in a dark hole, is the wood cube in the hole as a first floor, I’d sleep there in the stable temp, and an aboveground second floor for sunlight and double the living space ( perhaps made with those steel pieces that bolt pieces of lumber into a geodesic type dome- anyone know the brand name of those? ). At least a grand that way. What I’d like to do to save time and money is just hang wire from the lumber roof and plaster all the earth walls. IF that will keep out moisture/mold. And, if anyone knows how to cheaply make up plaster ( I can’t imagine buying five gallon buckets for it like you see at construction sites ).

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Now, while I hate the prospect of digging a 10x20 pit ten foot deep, that is easy as compared to say, filling used auto tires with dirt. Or making adobe bricks. I don’t mind spending a little money, and doing a little labor, but let’s not get crazy, either. Any critics, suggestions, etc.?

END
The Official Bison Web Site http://www.bisonpress.com/

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24 comments:

Anonymous said...

Jim, I’m not going to chastise you for giving up too quickly on the tube as I’m sure others will take care of that. As a true believer, you should be getting away from the ‘tin box’ as soon as possible anyway. For now I will avoid delving into details and stick with concepts. Burying the van underground won’t work for long as I’m sure you’ve heard that steel rusts. However, the van or the trailer would make an excellent entryway into the lair. Anyone watching would think you are living in the trailer giving you added time to deal with them. Since your daytime security has moved out this would be a great diversion; anyone robbing you would be surprised at how little stuff you have! One interesting idea I recently came across for ‘building’ underground is to use concrete sewer fittings. The big ones, eight or ten (or whatever) feet across. You lay it on the ground and dig out from underneath it. If you have it delivered tell them you are putting in a super large septic system. You might even add rooms later on. You could then cap it with an appropriate thickness of concrete slab. The best part is that without a woman around to poo-pah it, well, you could even have a periscope. Admit it, all real men want a periscope.

dennis said...

Hay Lord Bison. No not hay...straw. I built a straw bale house with dirt plaster. If you can find some clay I use a mix of clay and sand with straw for a base. Then clay, straw and cattail fibers for a final coat. I will be adding lime to this mess on the exterior. Maybe a coat of lindseed oil. You might have some clay down by the river. Spend some money on metal roofing to collect rain water, or do a dirt roof for camo. I really like the open space under ground idea.

san5pedro said...

Hey Jim,
Those geodesic connectors can be found at http://www.strombergschickens.com/starplate_building_system.
They are called star-plates. I think those are the ones you described for the above-ground portion of your proposed new dwelling.
I happened to drive thru Elko a few weeks ago on I-80 and looked for the Bison compound from the highway, but didn't have time to stop and search. Are you north or south of the big road?
san5pedro

russell1200 said...

Your big risk is a cave-in while you are digging. To prevent that you would either need temporary shoring, or 45 degree slopes. 45 degree slopes make for a pretty large footprint and a lot of digging.

Sarge said...

Long time listener, first time commentor. Before I begin, I just want to say I'm in awe of your perfect hair and bow before your almighty wisdom most wonderful bison lord.
Building the structure that your looking for should be easy. When I say easy I mean tortuosly back breaking labor , blood and sweat. However, it shouldn't cost you more than a couple hundred bucks. Even with only digging no more than a few feet down could feasible have a thermally insulated structure that needs almost no outside heat source. The biggest factor is the composotion of your soil. ( Please excuse my atrocious spelling errors, this is being typed on my phone while conducting an emergency download to the porcelian server) I'm sure there are more able minions than I who could design such a dwelling for you, perhaps they could put their heads together and come up with something ( with the sum collection of their meager IQ's) however, in the event that they fail you, I will send some designs to you shortly for your perusal.

TMM said...

if you don't have a copy of this... get it....

http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Dollar-Underground-House-Book/dp/0442273118/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1310224880&sr=8-1

CRZ from Wisconsin said...

I think those geodesic connectors were called "starplates"

Anonymous said...

JIM what ever you decide to build put it so your earth tube passes im the middle of it.you can use the ventalation.Plus the extra footage may help cool and heat the trailer.dont use the van i dont think your ready to give up the ability to move it yet to your other lot.use heavier timber for the roof like 2x10 so you dont need colums in the space> my pick for size is 12 x 16 this gives 192 sq feet and a fully encolosed cube can be done with 26 sheets of OSB 40 2x4x8ft and 12 2x 10 x12ft and if there is a spot close to your trailer you could even have a angled trap door under it or in to it.Around here the lumber cost would be around 550$ somthing to think about.gary in bama

Alison said...

The metal plates that make it easy to build a dome framework are called "Starplate" connectors, I do no know where would be the simplest place for you to acquire them, but I can attest to their ease of use. It looks like they are still being manufactured, as a quick internet search brought up several sources

El Chupacabra said...

You're one stubborn mule, Mr. Dakin. People have given you good ideas/solutions about getting the earth tube to cool your trailer and it seems like you're saying NYET! If I had spent 80+ hours of hard physical labor plus a couple hundred bucks on supplies, I think I'd try a cheap battery operated fan to see if it pulls the air through. Then, consider whether it's worth the money for a more permanent power solution (more batteries, more solar, etc). It seems like you're scratching the project prematurely and have resigned yourself to sweating the summer away and expending a lot more hard labor and hard-earned dollars on Plan B.

Anonymous said...

You had me at "bury the Van"...
LMAO!

As a potential storage area or emergency shelter--maybe, but solitary confinement isn't going to be good for you for very long--especially during winters.

I suggest buying a junked Short-bus, paying someone to weld thin steel plates over the windows, remove all the seats, and insulate it with the waterproof panels, and then get some 70's style nice wood paneling for the walls. Bury the short-bus, and a used metal culvert--big type, for an emergency route out the back of the bus-home. Pay someone with a mini-excavator--to do the main digging, and then do the rest by hand. You may be able to pull this off for less than 3k, given you should be able to find a junkyard shortbus for cheap, the towing will be the main expense.

Plus, you won't seem as crazy...er, and you will need the head room to prevent losing whats left of your mind, or accidentally bumping your hair too often in the van.

Anonymous said...

I'm assuming that you have Mike Oehler's "The Fifty Dollar and Up Underground House Book"?

If not, that would be your first step. He's been a hippy dude up here in North Idaho for decades and lives in the underground house he built in the Bonner Ferry's area.

I like his method. He uses post that are set in the ground. The planks are held in place by the earth pushing against them--no nails. That way if he needs to replace a board it's not a total dismantling project.

He uses heavy duty plastic between the boards and the earth. The floor is just used carpet over plastic.

His book would answer all the question you have. Plus, he's still kicking. You could email or write him a letter with any other questions you have.

Here's his website:

http://www.undergroundhousing.com/

I wouldn't even START the project until you read his book and look at his videos.

Idaho Homesteader

Anonymous said...

Don't have a second floor above your pit house. All of the heat you generate in winter will go up there, unless you can really close it off and insulate that door. Kind of defeating the purpose of it as you'll just need to insulate the crap out of the above ground place.

Use more wood than you think you need to support that roof. Earth is VERY heavy. so over engineer it even if it costs you more than you want. Stabalizing the dirt walls is also a very good idea even though plywood is not cheap. You could possibly use pallets for the walls/floor and shove insulation into the gaps, if you can find enough pallets around for free.

Also do multiple layers of plastic in case one or two get penetrated. Ground rodents are a problem and like to gnaw on plastic.

If you bury the van re-inforce the roof or it will collapse. They aren't engineered for any kind of constant load. Rail road ties across the top and supported from either support beams or earth on the out side of the van can help distribute the weight.

You can go cheap (your existing storage pit) or do it right. But it will cost you to do it right.

FM

Manic Bisonian Preacher said...

"
A solar bottle light bulb, an innovation introduced in the Philippines by Illac Diaz of MyShelter Foundation, as a cheap alternative to other light sources. It was an ingenious invention by an engineer in Brazil. It is called “bottle bulb” because it is made of an empty 1.5 liter soda bottle and in it is a liquid bleach and purified water that can be used as an alternative electric powered light bulb. However, it is only useful during daytime but its luminance was tested and shown to produce as much light as a 50W incandescent bulb."

http://www.pinoybisnes.com/business-ideas/how-to-make-solar-bottle-light-bulb/

sobriant74 said...

Well, the idea is sound, obviously many people have built this way, so there is plenty of literature out there to guide you. As for you digging the hole, don't even try doing it yourself with a shovel. Renting a mini-excavator for 4 hours is all it would really take and the money spent will easily be offset by the fact that you will be able to move onto the next stage quickly. If you bury the van you will quickly find out how unsealed it really is. You'll have bugs and dirt everywhere before long. A good 20ft conus container would be a better idea(knowing the sides and roof would need to be strenghthened), but a used one will still run you $1500, so maybe a little rich for your blood.
My compound that I am building on my junk land is underground. So far I have dug out two pits in an L shape with a mini-excavator and put in two 40 foot conus boxes that were sprayed on the outside with a coating used to resurface swimming pools to make them waterproof. Not much done otherwise yet, still working on framing in the boxes with steel supports before I bury them. Good luck!

Anonymous said...

Why not look at a hybrid design utilizing below ground and above ground using straw bale construction something very similar to the sod houses in the plains. Dig down maybe 4ft into the earth but use straw bale construction for super insulating purposes along the walls so you can get a southern exposure for solar heating during the winter and even use a natural or thermal chimney for ventilation during the summer months. It uses in conjunction that cold tube - it probably didn't work because there wasn't enough air draw from the exhaust. A small 12v fan from a computer hooked to a solar panel could have provided more air push.

Anonymous said...

Part 1-
Ok. Your finely folically superior self is asking for opinions, so here it goes.
First of all Mike Ohlers ‘$50 and up underground house book’ This book is pretty much what you are asking about.
I have stayed in and visited earth sheltered homes (including Mike Ohlers). I even helped build one at one point (and been planning one of our own for years)- And as for my opinion my response to your completely underground shelter plan as you described is one word.

NO.

A completely underground cube of the dimensions you are talking about excavated by hand in the soils of N. NV is _not_ worth it.
How about a PARTIALLY dug, Partially *earth bermed* structure (with the earth taken from the excavation)
The earth conveys LOTS of pressures on every aspect of all buried structures. You can be KILLED by a cave in. Underground is very prone to MOLD, soil gasses can build up and be hazardous. If you control moisture, humidity, and ventilation you can control those issues.
And even chipmunks know to always have at least two ways out. Make a back or side door as well as the primary one. (Don’t forget to lead the water away from those too, as it sucks to leave your nice little dry and clean cave only to step into knee deep muck.)
The problem with using lumber is that it will ROT eventually. If you have a scrap yard with steel of any sort that is strong enough- even stuff like chain-link posts, etc. Or consider upgrading and spending some $ on Concrete blocks and rebar, etc.

- Grey

Anonymous said...

Part 2 do’s donts
DO Plan, Plan, Plan. Every hour spent planning and preparing before building will save you $ and 3x the time.
DO NOT bury the bread van – it is a lot more useful up top and requires extra unused excavation.
ESSENTIAL – ventilation, drainage and insulation of walls ceilings and floors. Condensation WILL happen - your breath is HUMID, cooking releases steam, etc.
DO Stick to one story, shed/lean-to style roof, insulate AND WATERPROOF the roof _and_ the soil out and away from the structure with plastic and extruded foam boards.
DO NOT build a two story structure. It is much harder to do and likely to have the roof fall on your head when you’re at the deepest point.
DO rent a Cat. Get the bulk of your digging done in a day or two with it. Then build the plastic wrapped structure.
DO get LOTS of plastic to bury and make a ‘watershed umbrella’ around the place.
DO Consider carefully the advantages and disadvantages of having earth on your roof vs. insulation, and how much earth if you do go that route. Since it will be only partially buried (maybe just a metal roof and lots of insulation, as it has to bear LOTS of weight for only a little soil on top).
DO make certain you have the drainage and ventilation planned out 3 ways to heck and back.
DO make certain that your new cave is NOT the lowest point, and that water is happily led away (into a cistern for later use?) Plan on directing water away from the structure in every direction. Even there in Elko you get some rain and it would be a shame to have the bison compound turned into the bison mud pit. Reuse those earth pipes of yours for water drainage and ventilation. Any O2 consuming device needs its own air intake and outlet tubes (plus one for you).
DO get WINDOWS and Glass doors on your south facing side of your structure they are very helpful for light and heat.

You can spread out your Homestead by building single use structures –
Bedroom (earth sheltered)
Toilette Room (regular old shed at grade)
Bathroom (partially earth sheltered but near low point with really good drainage.)
Kitchen (partially earth sheltered near your pantry, but by being separate you wont heat your bedroom too much during the summer)
At @50-90 sq ft each, there is no need for building permits based what you said. ;-D And you can build one at a time as money allows. (But they all need to be *planned* all at once).
Don't link them with covered walkways right away, wait a while, but *do* put down ways of allowing you to go to one to another without getting your feet too muddy (pavers, rocks, cardboard?).

-Grey

Harry Steele said...

Perhaps digging deeper is a solution? For example... dig 1-1/2 stories deep, that way the top floor would be 1/2 underground which would help with both light and insulation/free heating/cooling... While the lower level would have an even more stable temperature .

Anonymous said...

To use your tube system as wheat storage, pull a rope through the tube
leaving several feet hanging out. Put a plug on the rope at the top which will fit in the tube & be able to be pulled through the tube out the lower end. Put a removable seal on the lower end (extra rope may be rolled up in lower end before sealing). Fill the tube with wheat, from the upper end, install the plug & rope & seal.
When you need wheat, open the lower end & pull on rope to get wheat. Resealing the lower end as needed. Ta Da! Larry

Anonymous said...

Hi Bison, would a small shipping container suffice. Buried, apart from camoflaged entrance end, with a thin layer of topsoil (check weight bearing). Stronger and waterproof.

And can add an extension for toilet/shower area with drainage pipes.

Plus long enough for a few bolt-together shelves for some tools, stored goods such as water, food, OTC meds, spare clothes, boots, t/paper, tarps, ropes, outdoor chair and table. Shelter for your bicycle etc.

Use the van as a decoy, parked some way off, with minimum stuff inside.

Sent you some links via email re earth bag homes filled with scoria (lava stones).

In the comments section people discuss the plaster mix they used and found useful, as well as other insulating materials they used, with the relevant 'R' rating for each type of material used.

However the earth from the dug out area can be used as well, just will not have the same insulating properties, yet it is free.

A backhoe would dig the area in a matter of hours, instead of the days required for manual digging.

Free is best, but if the project does not work - it is wasted time and energy, as you now realize re the earth tube...

Some initial outlay, more than your comfort level of spending, may be required; to finally provide a permanent, waterproof, warm and safe shelter, free of vermin, provide optimum temperature for storage of grain, etc.

I have a 40 foot shipping container plus a 25 foot travel trailer, so I will be staying tuned to see how you get this project completed with the minimum cash outlay as possible.

Like your 'never say die' attitude.

You just keep moving forward, and when things do not work out as you planned, you dust yourself off and start again...good on you.

Cheers. OT from DU.

mohave rat said...

I seem to recall this discussion couple of years ago when somebody suggested burying the van and parking the fifth wheel on top of it. A floor hatch would connect to a ceiling hatch in the van and you could go from one to the other without going outside.

A nice tunnel dug from the van over to the hidey hole you already got and you are on your way to a mansion.Not that much digging when you think about it.

Four hours rental of a back hoe and you're wiring and roofing the following day. tunnel could also be used as a humongous earth tube.

One other thing,either get the truck fixed or get a donkey cart. You can't scrounge or buy anything and get it home on a god damn bicycle.Use what is available while it is available. Another couple of months of single living you should be able to scrape out most the dirt with your dick!

FSHB said...

You are over complicating it. Reread 'Walden' by Thoreau. He understood the simple reality: you need to stay warm while you sleep, during the day you move around to stay warm.

Earth shelter is great, but without reinforcement you are asking for death, and this is supposed to be a survival blog. See about getting a deal with the nearest tire dealer for dead tires to pack with dirt for dirt wall construction. Make your ceiling able to support load or you will regret it.

Muddome said...

So far the comments you've received offer everything in the range from very helpful to just plain assinine. Mine will be in there somewhere too.
You seem to prefer to only bring home what you can carry on your bike so railroad ties and concrete sewer pipes are probably out.
Don't be so quick to rule out adobe. Earthbag is another option that you may wish to look at. (I'm a little biased on this one). My own earthbag structures have been very successful. Mine are domes so I don't have to worry about leaky roofs blowing off. Super strong, weather proof, bullet proof, passive heating and cooling if done right. And VERY cheap to build. Lots of labour, but that's ok, all that biking you do has prepared you.